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Enough is Enough: Nerf Minmatar

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Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 32	Posted - 2011.11.02 02:41:00 - [1] - Quote Morganta wrote: problem is people don't know how to counter the cane. Not really. Morganta wrote: people need to not go OMGWTFBBQ! when one gets up in your grill and actually do something that exploits its weakness This should be good... Morganta wrote: neut it Projectiles > Neuts and since any good cane will have neuts of it's own.. lol Morganta wrote: shoot it, outrun it. Most agile, highest speed while tackled. Disengage at will. Anything that can't out-run it, won't get the chance to shoot it in the first place. And most ships that can out-run it, will be needing to gtfo at this point. Morganta wrote: dump drones on him, web, jam.... So basically jam him and hope to gtfo, nice. Ever wonder why literally everyone has a falcon alt?
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 34	Posted - 2011.11.02 18:55:00 - [2] - Quote IDGI. The standard response's are: 1. Minmatar is fine, look at the drake. Actually, look at heavy missiles in general, but this is beside the point. Let me know when small, medium, and large missiles are all as great as their projectile counterparts. 2. Minmatar is fine, scorch pwns us! As it should, but the problem is you can engage or be engaged by any amarrian ship and have more than enough speed and agility to get out if you're loosing. Projectiles are clearly out of line given the mobility of minmatar ships. Their only true weakness is sensor strength and I think most of us realize that is a problem.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2011.11.03 16:13:00 - [3] - Quote Roosterton wrote: Alara IonStorm wrote: 1400mm Maelstrom 1400mm Tempest Nano Tempest 720mm Nano Hurricane Arty Muninn Scimitar Rapier Huginn Hound Sabre Broadsword Vs Caldari HAM Drake HML Drake Nano Drake HAM Tengu 100MN AB Tengu Falcon Rook Basilisk Cerberus Manticore Scorpion Fixed. Looks like someone is desperately grabbing at straws.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2011.11.03 19:32:00 - [4] - Quote Point: Projectiles have too many perks and not enough drawbacks. Counterpoints: Drakes! Scorch! Effectiveness of counterpoints: 2/10 Considering the changes under development are for -hybrids- and (as far as any reasonable person can tell) those changes are not going to do much for hyrbids in comparison to projectiles. I'd say we're getting off topic arguing over drakes (nerf them, nerf heavy missiles too, who the hell cares?).
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2011.11.03 19:42:00 - [5] - Quote :pokerface:
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2011.11.03 21:10:00 - [6] - Quote Let's get to the heart of the issue: Quote: Hybrid Turrets Reduce CPU usage: GÇó L Turrets: -3 CPU GÇó M Turrets: -2 CPU GÇó S Turrets: -1 CPU Reduce Powergrid usage: GÇó All hybrid turrets: -12% Powergrid usage. Rounded to nearest whole number. Reduced Capacitor usage: GÇó All hybrid turrets: -30% capacitor use Tracking Speed Increase: GÇó All blaster turrets: +20% to Tracking speed Railguns Damage Increase: GÇó All railgun turrets: +10% to Damage modifier Is this really a good start? What would you add to this list, if anything?
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2011.11.03 21:44:00 - [7] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: My only comment on this is that it was never tracking that drove me to use Projectiles and then Lasers. It was just that the reward (DPS) for getting into web+scram+neut range wasn't good enough to justify doing it. It also seems that you left out a bunch of ship changes which (I hear) make it easier to get into blaster range in the first place. -Liang I agree, the reward blasters get for living in scram range isn't worth it. One of many gripes I have with the list proposed is that (and the on-grid probing that plagues 100km+ sniping/rails). Oh and here's the bunch of ship changes you're alluding to: Quote: Max Velocity +10 on the following ships: Arazu, Astarte, Brutix, Catalyst, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Enyo, Eos, Falcon, Guardian-Vexor, Helios, Incursus, Ishtar, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant Max Velocity +5 on the following ships: Cormorant, Federation Navy Comet, Hyperion, Kronos, Sin, Vindicator Inertia Modifier -5% on the following ships: Adrestia, Arazu, Ares, Astarte, Atron, Brutix, Catalyst, Celestis, Cormorant, Daredevil, Deimos, Dominix, Dominix Navy Issue, Eagle, Enyo, Eos, Eris, Exequror Navy Issue, Falcon, Federation Navy Comet, Ferox, Guardian-Vexor, Harpy, Helios, Hyperion, Incursus, Ishkur, Ishtar, Kronos, Lachesis, Maulus, Megathron, Megathron Federate Issue, Megathron Navy Issue, Merlin, Moa, Phobos, Raptor, Rokh, Sin, Taranis, Thorax, Tristan, Utu, Vexor, Vexor Navy Issue, Vigilant, Vindicator, Vulture And before you say "oh but there's more!" This rounds out the blog: Quote: Tech II Ammo GÇó Javelin (all sizes): Removed cap penalty GÇó Javelin, Gleam and Quake (all sizes): Removed tracking speed penalty, added 25% tracking speed bonus GÇó Hail (all sizes): Removed falloff penalty Call me pessimistic, but I don't see those love-taps kicking hybrid platforms into fighting shape.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2011.11.03 21:56:00 - [8] - Quote lol
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 39	Posted - 2011.11.03 22:15:00 - [9] - Quote We really need to stop this. Attempting to publicize a well-kept secret fit that violates game mechanics is something that could come back to haunt Mr. Hishido in the future.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 40	Posted - 2011.11.03 22:53:00 - [10] - Quote Izuru Hishido wrote: No, pointing out a biased, incomplete argument just makes you wrong apparently, even when your logic is sound. Its like talking to a brick and expecting it to start singing Hamlet. You, of all people here, talking about logic?
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 40	Posted - 2011.11.03 23:02:00 - [11] - Quote Izuru Hishido wrote: Nimrod Nemesis wrote: Izuru Hishido wrote: No, pointing out a biased, incomplete argument just makes you wrong apparently, even when your logic is sound. Its like talking to a brick and expecting it to start singing Hamlet. You, of all people here, talking about logic? Rambling always gets the best of logic. I think you just accidentally, your point.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 40	Posted - 2011.11.03 23:24:00 - [12] - Quote Roosterton wrote: Nanopests are AC ships. So fine, remove the HAM ships, also remove the nanopest. The list is still pretty even. At the MOST generous, it's 10 to 9. Quote: 1400mm Maelstrom 1400mm Tempest 720mm Nano Hurricane Arty Muninn Scimitar Rapier Huginn Hound Sabre Broadsword (10) Vs Caldari HML Drake 100MN AB Tengu Falcon Rook Basilisk Cerberus (lol) Manticore Scorpion (9) more like (6) I would have to argue the Rook/Falcon don't belong in fleets. I would also argue the cerb is a truly LAUGHABLE fleet hac and I really can't imagine comparing it to the muninn. So that puts us, more realistically, at 10 to 6. Then you might as well consider the scimi is in most cases superior to the basi and the manticore is certainly not one of the better bombers... ** this is depressing. Roosterton wrote:** As for the Rook/Falcon, they're decent alternatives to Scorps if more mobility is needed. Maybe Scorps are more commonly used because flying them requires nothing but sitting there and activating jammers, but that doesn't nullify the viability of other ECM ships. We're still talking about fleets, yes?
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 40	Posted - 2011.11.03 23:44:00 - [13] - Quote Mfume Apocal wrote: Depends on how you define "fleet" because past a certain point, the 1400mm Pest and Muninn should be falling off that list as well. And who uses Sabres for fleets? More expensive for capabilities you don't need for a fleet dictor. And that should be a 10MN Tengu. How do you define fleet? And don't you mean at a certain point everything BUT 1400mm X falls off the list? (I guess it depends on which side has them) Anyhow, valid point about the sabre. Tengu should just be tengu. Quote: 1400mm Maelstrom 1400mm Tempest 720mm Nano Hurricane Arty Muninn Scimitar Rapier Huginn Hound Broadsword (9) Vs HML Drake HML Tengu Basilisk Manticore Scorpion (5) Edited for more realism.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 16:44:00 - [14] - Quote Alara IonStorm wrote: This myth that Minmatar is harder to train is just that. I don't get why it is so popular. So a twat like wilkus can feel accomplished.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 22:20:00 - [15] - Quote I'll take a cyclone with (neut) utility slots over a brutix, ferox, or prophecy any day of the week, tbh.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 22:28:00 - [16] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Nimrod Nemesis wrote: I'll take a cyclone with (neut) utility slots over a brutix, ferox, or prophecy any day of the week, tbh. The Brutix and Ferox could be really exciting if the hybrid boosts go the right way. :) -Liang I noticed you've been absent the hybrid changes thread. =/ GO! (Sufficed to say, i've been on sisi and while they are going the "right way," they're certainly not seeming to realize just how far they need to go. Baby steps is probably an overstatement. Let your voice be heard - again - if you actually care.)
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 22:56:00 - [17] - Quote Roosterton wrote: I'm just saying, Tornados already track things horribly Come again?
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 23:11:00 - [18] - Quote Roosterton wrote: Is it OP in comparison to the other tier 3 BC's? Sure, maybe, I don't know. But justifying that Minmatar as a whole is getting buffed to a further extent than Gallente, just because of the Tornado - which is still subject to change - and the Hail buff - which nobody is going to use anyway - is just stupid. This would be the operative question. The problems you are describing apply to all the new BCs. I agree, using the new ship to make a case for minmatar nerfs is silly (there are plenty of existing minmatar ships to base those arguments on already). Having said that, you've been testing as much or more than I have so I can only assume you realize that, at present, the Tornado is head and shoulders above all but the oracle and even compared to the oracle it's probably got an edge. My point was simply that, insisting that it had problems applying dps in relationship to the other new bc's would be fallacious. The worst-case scenario is there for your evaluation, it's called the naga and the talos isn't far behind.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 23:20:00 - [19] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Gypsio, I don't mind conversing with you and you were generally a good poster... but this poast is just pants on head. Claiming that ECM is a weapon platform for Caldari in the same paragraph that you say its reasonable to say Caldari are just as drone and armor intensive as Minmatar? Dude what? -Liang In his defense I fly more caldari ships with ecm than I fly minmatar ships with launchers and I also fly a plated scorpion about as often as I fly any minmatar ship that's armor tanked. Technically, he's wrong, but practically, he's absolutely right. Hybrids shouldn't really be considered a weapon system for caldari atm. ECM has become the only role for caldari outside of heavy missile spam and the occasionall basi logistic chain. Plating scorps is one of the few ways to get a caldari ship into an armor fleet (admittedly not as commonplace as it used to be).
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 42	Posted - 2011.11.06 23:29:00 - [20] - Quote Roosterton wrote: I never tried comparing the Tornado the other tier 3 BC's, I was just trying to make a point to Naomi about how it's not going to be doing very much with Hail, that its paper DPS is going to be far less than 840 out to 64km, and that it's hardly as game-breaking as he was making it out to be. I think you should start making that comparison if you'd like to make a case that buffing the other ships could yeild balanced results in the new ship class. I conceded the point about the whole 'using the tornado as argument against hail,' thing. No argument from me there. Roosterton wrote: But yes, the Naga and Talos could definitely use some sort of serious buff. Glad we agree on this, but like I said, I'd like to hear what you and others think can be done with them. I don't see a torp or hybrid platform (given the test server state of both weapon systems) coming on par with the tornado without some miraculous fixing.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 43	Posted - 2011.11.07 00:39:00 - [21] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: I know where you're coming from, but that makes him no less technically and practically wrong. Your point would be about as valid as someone saying that Minmatar have a large shield transporter as a primary weapon system. -Liang I see caldari being forced into ecm support ships more often than minmatar into scimis, although I recognize a bit of a cyclical relationship there (drake fleets encourage minmtar pilots to fly logi, minmtar fleets encourage caldari pilots to fly logi or ewar). As I said, I agree it's functionally incorrect to make the comparison from ewar system to weapon system, but I find the argument to be less than flagrantly misleading considering the state of caldari ships at the moment. Not really an important argument, so I think we can agree to disagree on the finer points. =P
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 47	Posted - 2011.11.07 16:32:00 - [22] - Quote Niko Takahashi wrote: OK so Eagle still sucks Rokh is still the best sniper in useless theoretical scenario Ferox well at least they are cheap. Did I miss anything? Something un-ironic about minmatar having a hard time and then a pot-shot at the drake or scorch.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 48	Posted - 2011.11.07 21:03:00 - [23] - Quote Every race is easy to train for. Leave the bitch-fits to the gals on Jersey Shore you two.
Nimrod Nemesis Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 110	Posted - 2011.11.17 00:54:00 - [24] - Quote Discussion veers towar the topic of hybrids: DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE DRAKE lol

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